Mark Vandegrift
Welcome to the Brand Shorthand Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Vandegrift, and with me is the Maestro of Marketing, Lorraine Kessler. Lorraine, how you doing? 

Lorraine Kessler
Good. Good, Mark.

Mark Vandegrift
Good. So Lorraine, last episode, we talked about some instances of bad PR that came from those promotions with Pepsi and McDonald's. Part of public relations, as you know, is a specialized discipline called crisis communications, which I'm not sure Pepsi and Mickey D's had enough of in this case. So we also, by the way, had an instance of a client recently who had to have a slight dose of crisis communications, but because we were at the ready, it all went well. So that's kind of the reason you have a crisis communications plan to start with. So, I figured today's topic would be crisis communications if you haven't figured that out yet. And, because of that, it was a good opportunity to bring in a special guest on the podcast today. She's our very own, in Innis Maggiore PR and Content Marketing Manager, Merce Brown. Merce, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Merce Brown
Hello. Well, thank you for having me on the show. I'm really excited to get into some crisis communication. Fun for us, not for others. But you know, so what I do at Innis Maggiore, I'm in the public relations department. So all about building relationships with a brand and all of these different audiences. So consumers, their partners, their audience, the community, consumers, and all that. we do it in a couple ways. Whether we're making content like blogs, social media, news releases, the classic things, or doing classic media relations, talking to journalists and different partners in the community and monitoring brand buzz. So all those things covered under the umbrella of public relations, including crisis management. But I've been with the agency a little over a year now, just celebrated one year as full time. And I was an intern previously. So it's been a fun journey.

Mark Vandegrift
Very good. Well, for those that have never met Merce, she's a very interesting person and has stories galore. It's kind of like Mini Lorraine. Although, Merce, you have a few years to go before you have the number of stories Lorraine has.

Merce Brown
I can only hope to get more fun stories to share with others in my life.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, you have the distinct pleasure of having one of Lorraine's art pieces behind you. And so for our listeners that might go, what is behind her? We can say Lorraine created that piece back, was that in college, Lorraine?

Lorraine Kessler
No, I did it when I was at Innis. I was given that office and there was nothing on the wall. And I was like, and I had done a scribble drawing on my wall at home. So I was like, I'm just going to do a scribble drawing because it's just, it doesn't take a lot of thought. And when the job takes a lot of thought, it's all emotion and it's all about appreciating line. So anybody who's an artist will know that it's about appreciating what line can do and what happens when it breaks up and all. There's a lot of good stuff about that.

Mark Vandegrift
Very good. Well, Lorraine, since I took the lead the last few episodes, I'm going to let you take the reins here because part of this was an article, or not an article, but a reaction that you had and you were like, "holy cow, Mark, what in the world is going on?" So tell us about something that's not going well that you experienced firsthand very recently.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, well, I probably have to give some context, but this is about Boar's Head. And I'll give some context as people don't know, but I think they probably do. You know, the company is in the midst of one of the worst crises I've ever witnessed the company could be in. It's a PR disaster, right? Brand disaster. They've had nine deaths as we're talking today, 57 people hospitalized, something like six, seven states from a listeria infection, which was traced back to their Virginia processing deli meat plant. When it first started, they were just focused on, I think, liverwurst. So that would be like me and my husband and maybe five other people.

Mark Vandegrift
Liverwurst's awesome. What are you talking about?

Lorraine Kessler
You might like it.

Mark Vandegrift
I do love it.

Lorraine Kessler
But it expanded to bacon and ham and salami, and so it's pretty broad in terms of the products that come out of this Virginia plant. The problem is you know, you have this fifth generation family who's owned Boar's Head and who's advocated and and really positioned this brand as the highest standard in quality. If you watch, go to their website, for example, you'll see a web- a video about them talking about their standard of quality in a mass produced world and how they have this commitment for quality above all else. But this particular crisis just blows that away, right? And added to that is that as people research more and more behind the crisis, how did this happen? Their statements about we prioritize food safety and even on their website, if you go today, it says, at Boar's Head, the health and safety of our customers is our top priority. And then they talk about the recall. Here's what's the backstory. This Virginia plant has had escalating problems for many, many years. They've had 69 instances of non-compliance for black mold, water dripping over meat, dead flies, blood puddled on a floor, meat overspray. I mean, these are things I don't want to know about. Rancid smell in a cooler, and the US Department of Agriculture, which regulates part of this, says that there's a very stringent protocol for swabbing for listeria because they have zero tolerance because listeria is so deadly. So what really freaked me out, to go back to your initial question, right, is not only are they not ahead of the story, which is in the words of Jack Woolitz is always number one in crisis communication. They're so far behind it that- and I was reading about this on Facebook, you calling up articles or, and I get, as you often get an intrusive ad, right, that pops up that promotes buying Boar's Head deli meats. And I was just like, are you kidding me? The environment, the context for seeing this ad amidst these articles that are about all these horrendous things that are going on. And they're not to make light of. Real people's lives have been affected. And we only know of the 57 hospitalizations and the nine deaths. There could be people that didn't know they had Listeria. Not everybody dies, although there is a high mortality. So I'm like, Mark, like-

Mark Vandegrift
I saw your text. You were aghast.

Lorraine Kessler
I know how we buy this stuff based on behavioral or what you're reading and keywords. But doesn't somebody there shut off the advertising? I mean, what would you have done? What would we have done?

Mark Vandegrift
Well, you know, the algorithm is probably a basic display network thing in Google ads where they have, if Boar's Head shows up in an article, make sure you run an ad in that article. So you're on a page, I think it was WKYC, right? With, but it was within Facebook maybe. And they're just detecting their name. And so it's like, "we're just going to assume all news is good news and we're gonna run that ad there." The problem is is that the moment this happened, I think what should have been done by their digital team was turn off all advertising, anything that's going to get our name or our ad put out there because if 90% of your current PR is bad PR, there's no way that your ad's gonna show up in a good situation. So now you've just made it worse. And your reaction was perfect to that.

Lorraine Kessler
I was just like, "are you kidding me?" This is the worst moment in my buying purchase inclination. The other thing I've been searching a lot too is the Boeing crisis. And I've been watching the Senate hearings on this because I followed this for a long time. I mean, the only thing worse would be if I got on that- while was watching the hearings, you know, I got an ad for Boeing. "Fly the friendly skies with Boeing."

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah. Well, you know, that that reminds me of the there's a lawsuit going on right now with Disney Springs. I don't remember who I heard it from. Might have been from you. So last year, a man and his wife go to a restaurant at Disney Springs, and we've been down there a ton of times. And I've actually been at this restaurant. It's an Irish kind of, I guess, outfit. And they even have Irish bands on the stage. You sit on the patio and it's all lovely and everything. But the lady informs the restaurant multiple times that she has severe allergies to dairies and nuts, or to dairy and nuts. And, you know, of course the case is still pending. So I'll just say allegedly she said that. But allegedly the restaurant didn't take proper care when they were handling the wife's food. So when the wife had the food, she went into anaphylactic shock and died later that day in the hospital. So I mean, this wasn't just, "ooh, I got anaphylactic shock and they, you know, jabbed me with the EpiPen." She actually died. So while she was at Disney Springs, it's not exactly Disney's fault, right? But because this is an independent restaurant operated on the property. But the husband files a lawsuit, and like most lawsuits, you pull in every party that you can think of. And he sues for, I was surprised at the low amount, $50,000.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, I don't think that's the whole amount. That's what they publicized.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, there's always punitive that comes on top of that.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, and if that's all he's suing for, he needs new attorneys because usually that's, I read it was $50,000, but then there's related costs for suffering, loss of income, medical. So it's going to be in the millions for sure. Yeah.

Mark Vandegrift
Oh, easily. Yep. So anyhow, but even that starting amount seems out of whack, doesn't it? 

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, yeah, it does.

Mark Vandegrift
But here's where Disney just goes bonkers wrong with this. Okay. So Disney argues first, they have no negligence on their behalf, nor are they responsible for the restaurant. And this is an independent restaurant. So I get it. But instead of just staying on that line of reasoning, they actually go to Disney+ and find out that this guy signed up for Disney+ four years ago

Lorraine Kessler
The streaming channel?

Mark Vandegrift
The streaming channel, yes. And there's a clause in there that with the terms and conditions, you know the stuff nobody reads because it would take forever. There's a clause in there that says users agree to settle any disputes with the company via arbitration. So since he had a month long free trial at Disney+ four years ago, they're saying he can't bring up a wrongful death suit against Disney. So now update on that, they dropped that argument this week, just this week that they're doing away with this whole argument around the arbitration and such. But if this wasn't handled poorly, I don't know what could be much worse. And, I don't know, just give me your sense of connecting these two odd dots right here.

Lorraine Kessler
Well, I don't know who Disney's in-house attorneys are, but they should all be fired, along with the Secret Service who planned the Butler PA. I mean, it's astoundingly stupid to fight this, right? You are Disney. You have a huge- it's all your brand. This is in the media, not based on the restaurant owner or what- it's on the Disney name, Disneyland. And then to try, I mean- I think the lawyers, this guy's name I think was Piccolo, Joseph Piccolo, his lawyers put out a statement, which I thought was so funny, because they said, this "borders on the surreal." I mean, probably Disney's been writing too many Marvel villains or whatever, because they've stepped into that role. So, you know, I cannot believe a company that size has been around that's equated with magic, think about that, would take a contract for a streaming service, which has no- I mean, so if you went down on a cruise ship, you can't sue them in the court of law?

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, arbitration.

Lorraine Kessler
If you get killed on one of their rides on Space Mountain, right, you can't sue them? You have to go into arbitration? It's just, it is surreal.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah. Well, Merce, what would your take be on this?

Merce Brown
Well, I'd say it's just crazy, I think, in their statement- their statement is quite poor in the sense that they basically admitted they were willing to use their terms and conditions in any scenario and were just happening to make an "exception" for this sensitive case. And I think it's just telling them they don't even have any awareness that that would at all be problematic for most people. To your point Lorraine about magic, their current advertising, I actually quite like their current TV ads. I get them served quite a lot, but they're all about showing those magic moments throughout the park. And they're supposed to entice families to want to see your child. And it's like, do you reconcile magic in every moment with death at your... Disney Springs is kind of one those open things. You don't need a ticket to get to it, but of course it's part of your brand. And so, you know, there's a huge disconnect because I think their statement also said something to the effect of, know, we value a human approach. Well, nothing you've done so far says anything about having a human approach. If anything, I think it only inspires people to drop Disney further, which is like another movement that has become increasingly popular with families is to drop Disney as Disney takes on a more adult audience. People who are single or maybe don't have any children that still enjoy going to Disney. So crisis management wise, it's just honestly, such a disconnect, has nothing to do with family magic, anything to do with the park. Their response, I mean, if they want to come back from this, think quietly they should maybe start rolling back some of the restrictions that people have cited as making the park not family friendly, including the rate increases for tickets. That's become a topic of discussion. The way Fast Passes operate. I don't think a loud movement is in their favor personally. Clearly they're not very good at these loud announcements, but if they were to slowly make the park more family friendly and make their brand appear more family friendly and maybe drop some very controversial issues that they take very vocal stances on, that would be a way of coming back from this kind of crisis.

Lorraine Kessler
Now, I don't know how widespread or wide known this particular case is. And as a lawyer, if I'm a Disney lawyer and any lawyer, your job is to avoid court at all costs. With its big pockets, its deep, deep pockets, they could easily have come to a quiet settlement for millions. It wouldn't have meant- it would have been pennies on the dollars for most people. And they're just not the only brand that did this. There was a John Hopkins case, a John Hopkins Children's Hospital in Florida. And it's a long case, but I watched it, and stupidly and arrogantly because John Hopkins thinks they're "John Hopkins", right? They went to court on this case and they got their clocks cleaned where they could have settled for 10 million. The jury actually gave more punitive payment then was asked for by the attorneys to the tune of $260 million. And see, that's what I'm saying. Each of these things have like the suffering, the loss of income, medical, PTSD, legal costs- they all have dollars attached to them. So when they did this John Hopkins case, there was like 10 charges. Like the initial amount for suffering was a small amount, and then it kept layering on. I'm like, you just had on court TV on every YouTube channel where people watch weeks of a trial, you had the worst people who I would never want treating me- they were so cold- testify. This is your brand and this could have been done quietly, get ahead of it, show compassion. And these people, these companies have money. So it's like, bite the bullet.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, another big case, which Denver pointed out to us, our new producer of Brand Shorthand Podcast, was an anti-trust suit against Apple. I don't know if you've heard about this one, but the case alleges that Apple has monopolized the smartphone market by creating a closed circuit ecosystem, if you will, around Apple products, and apparently they've been suppressing the message quality between iPhones and other phones. Therefore, you know, they prevent developers from publishing on competing platforms from the app store. And that then they limit like third-party smartwatches and things like that. This is very similar to the Microsoft suit in the nineties, which if you recall, when we worked for Microsoft, they were just kind of coming off of that. And this case has been filed with the DOJ, with 15 states, DC. mean, they're all filing this lawsuit against Apple, citing the Sherman Anti-trust Act, if you're familiar with that. That's kind of basically what keeps us away from monopolies. But, you know, give us a little sense what you know about it. Maybe the Microsoft one, because you're familiar with that, but also how this is just reminiscent of that.

Lorraine Kessler
It is very reminiscent because Microsoft was accused of monopolizing the web browser market for Windows, right? And of course Bill Gates was pretty public about his strategy to dominate applications and operating systems and peripherals and really kind of do in his market what IBM did. And so Microsoft used both legal at the time and technical restrictions. So, people out there understand on PC makers, the OEMs, the original equipment manufacturers of hardware, they put restrictions on them. These OEMs were almost forced to install Internet Explorer- remember Netscape, and Java. My God, I can't believe how fast the world-

Mark Vandegrift
Has moved since Netscape. Yeah.

Lorraine Kessler
Also users had to download these operating systems in order to work. So the interesting thing, and I think this is the correlation to Apple, look at what's going on in the phone market right now. Motorola's coming back hot and heavy with Razr. The Google phone is huge. What's another one? There's another one out there.

Mark Vandegrift
Samsung's really big right now.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah. So all of sudden these people are catching up and they're improving different parts of their phone's performance. Like I'm very impressed by Google's focus on the things people really care about beyond the look, which seems like Apple got stuck in just the look of the phone, the hardware itself. And Google's like functionality, its photography is just, it's amazing, right? And so where the parallel is, is Microsoft didn't start pressing this and playing these games until they got rivals. And when they got rivals, it was their way of shutting them down so that they could gain advantage. And that's what really woke up the court system to them. So it ended up that the first court ruled- because there was, how these courts that goes from one court to an appeals court- so the first court in the United States District of Columbia wanted to break Microsoft into two units. You know, one that would be, I think, about the software, one would be about operating systems. And then that was overturned in the appeals court. And they finally came to a settlement. They came to a settlement where Microsoft consented not to tie other Microsoft products to the sale of Windows. Especially, remember this one, Internet Explorer. Is that still around?

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, it's edge now. They dropped the IE platform or engine behind it. It's basically built on Chrome.

Lorraine Kessler
Okay. And they did allow PC manufacturers to adopt non-Microsoft software. So that was it. But during the trial, which was really interesting, we'll see how Apple plays this, Microsoft falsified some demonstrations to try and prove that their operating system didn't perform differently on different platforms or with different software, and they got caught. It's like trust no one.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah. Well, Merce, what do you think on this one? Where, which way should Apple take this?

Merce Brown
Yeah, I feel like I mean off the bat, it's very shameless on their part that they don't necessarily, they're kind of like Disney. They kind of don't care, they're a big corporation. They kind of feel like they're untouchable. I think Tim Cook literally in a response said something to the effect of someone asked him why should he buy his mom an iPhone or, you know, how can he better communicate with his mom who has an Android? And he just said, "buy an iPhone." It's like- none of this is like, you know- and I think response wise, I think it all goes back to positioning. Like if I'm looking at like, they need to prepare now for, think like Microsoft, look at what happened after you had other search engines that emerge after. And you know, of course Google's dominant, but there's other ones that are popular with other people like DuckDuckGo. So they really probably should prepare to lose this case. And in that respect, really focus marketing on why should you pick Apple other than forcing me to buy Apple because I can't use an Android and talk to my friends. They really probably should also focus on a message that is about interconnectedness rather than shutting people off and making these barriers. So you're actually more isolated in the sense of I only use Apple products personally because they all connect. I get a new computer and in five minutes I have everything I had before. But I mean, can they prove to me how interconnected their products are in response and maybe show that they aren't necessarily out there to be some kind of cagey rhino, you know, with these other with this other technology but- And I actually was looking at some, you know, what is Apple's mission statement? You know, like, what do they actually stand for other than being like the number one product, I guess, in the market? And of course, they may be a leader technology wise and Tim Cook, back to bring him back, he kind of said they're there to "make the greatest products on earth." But it's like, what does that mean? Like, what does that mean to be "the greatest product on earth?" I guess is what I'm thinking. And, know, you shouldn't necessarily have to, you know, beat out all of your competitors to prove that to me. You should just be able to tell me that by yourself.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, because the subtext is my real audience for Tim Cook is my investors and the real subliminal subtext to what you just read as to the consuming public is we want to be the only technology on earth. And it's world domination. And this is the problem. This is the problem we've seen with CEOs and C-level people have become disconnected. You know, it's like you can't serve two masters. They're so married to their investors that they almost have- they become tone deaf to the consuming public and who really buys their products. And if I think if I were a PR director for these companies, one of the first things I would do is make sure they don't speak on behalf of me.

Mark Vandegrift
That's a good call. Well, one last PR crisis I wanted to talk about here was a boycott against Dunkin'. And sorry for our listeners, we've been in this boycott arena, but that seems to what- that a boycott triggers our attention, right? So Lorraine, I think you've heard of it. Have you heard of the social media platform called Rumble?

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah.

Mark Vandegrift
Okay, it's kind of a competitor to YouTube and other ones, Vimeo and things, and I'm pretty sure Merce has heard of it. So the CEO of Rumble, Chris Pavlovski, said that he had pitched Dunkin'- so he pitched to Dunkin' for them to advertise on his platform. But Dunkin' said they didn't want to because they believed the platform, which we who are pay attention know it's a little bit right-leaning, would be too polarizing. So, to be fair, anything political is polarizing, but aren't most of these other companies on the other side of that aisle? So what political spectrum do we have here? Is it this far? it, know, wider? So Chris tweeted out this story and now there's a big boycott.

Lorraine Kessler
The CEO of Rumble? Problem number one.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, Chris Pavlovski, the CEO, tweeted out the story. And now there's like hashtags and all the other tags and things that they do on social. And Chris Pavloski at Rumble is launching his own coffee brand called "Rumble 1775". Given what you and I know about line extensions, I don't have a high hope for that. It'll probably be a flash in the pan, but I was wondering what your input is concerning a full-scale boycott based around not wanting to advertise on a political app.

Lorraine Kessler
So first of all, you have a CEO of a vendor going rogue to the media, which is unbelievable. And secondly, you have a PR gimmick with the coffee. That's just a gimmick. He doesn't care if he sells one cup of that stuff. I'm on the side of Dunkin' in this. I think brands have one mission when buying media, and that is "what media is most effective and efficient for us to buy." You can't buy everything. So you have to make decisions. You have to be strategically concise. You have to prioritize. "Where's the best bang for my buck in terms of the audience I'm trying to reach?" So there's an old saying that, know, "brands don't buy media, they buy audiences." And there's many ways I can buy an audience. I could do Super Bowl ads only. And does that mean I'm trying to be, you know, playing the political game for only those who like football or watch that game? No. So, they're looking at it strategically, I think, and saying, where's my audience and where do I need to be seen and heard? And I agree with them. If you were an independent shopkeeper, I remember Mr. Kessler, my husband's father, owned a men's store in Perrysburg, Ohio. John's mother was very right-wing. She's one of the six people who voted for Barry Goldwater. And she, you know, it was like the largest, Right. And she wanted him to put a Goldwater bumper sticker on his car. He drove all of two blocks to his store. And he was like, "no way. I don't want to alienate half my audience. That's not what I'm here to do. I'm here to provide affordable, good clothing, essential needs to the working people in Perrysburg." So I think Dunkin's not too far afield from that. They need a coffee for everybody. And I just feel like they have a right to not buy your media. Now I don't know who else they're buying and if they're leaning in any direction. I have a feeling they're not. I think they're going where the bigger audience is and the bigger bang for the buck. And so, you know, I think that's the right call for the ever man or every person coffee place.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, Merce, I know you have a take on this, but one of my questions would be, if I were Dunkin', why would I state to somebody why I'm not buying their media? In other words, didn't I create my own firestorm?

Merce Brown
Well, I guess, I mean- I'm an avid Dunkin' lover. This is really hard for me personally because I would go there every day if I had the choice. And it's my favorite coffee brand for I think some of the reasons that Lorraine said. I'll get into that for other reasons. But I mean, I do think calling out specific right-leaning people in your email maybe is something that would be something that creates a firestorm for sure. I think their response maybe it would have been better said to just say what they said in the opening of their statement, which was this just isn't- this is a little too- this just isn't where we want the platform right now. They didn't necessarily need to name people. but I think overall, agree with the approach that Dunkin' didn't necessarily have to advertise on Rumble. Rumble I think differs from other platforms like Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. And while we know many platforms lean left in that regard, they weren't necessarily founded on that idea like Rumble was. Rumble is founded on the prospect of being different than "left leaning places" like YouTube and becoming a place for free speech, which, you know, obviously it's a term in the constitution, but it has become a tagline of the right to say that they don't want to participate on left-wing media. So I think given that nature alone, I understand why Dunkin' doesn't necessarily want to buy that media. I also think the CEO shouldn't have posted that on that looks really- makes rumble look even less credible and in many ways maybe helps say, "Dunkin' maybe did the right move because who wants to work with volatile people who post your interactions when business doesn't go well." But I think Dunkin' overall, the reason I like picking Dunkin' is it's not overly political when I go to Dunkin' Donuts. It's America runs on Dunkin', not one side runs on Dunkin'. So I love going to Dunkin' Donuts. Starbucks has very much taken a stance in the coffee world. So Dunkin' Donuts is the everyman coffee. So I think they've done a good job at staying neutral.

Mark Vandegrift
Very good. Well, I think that covers all I had to talk about crisis communications today. Do either of you have any closing comments? I'll start with you, Merce.

Merce Brown
I guess, you know, when you have a crisis, you know who to call. You should call Innis Maggiore.

Mark Vandegrift
Very good. We have her trained already, Lorraine.

Merce Brown
Yeah, yeah, we'll get you, we'll help you get through anything.

Mark Vandegrift
Very good. How about you, Lorraine?

Lorraine Kessler
I just have to say that Dunkin', I think I'm with Merce. I'm glad that she being a different generation appreciates this brand. think they've done a great job rebranding, coming back, innovating, doing some things that we're going to talk about a little bit later. They need to advertise their breakfast sandwiches more because they are phenomenally good. And I had no idea they were that good. I just happened to be hungry one morning and passed one and tried it, they're great.

Mark Vandegrift
Very good, well, that's a good note to end on. It's always a pleasure Lorraine, and thank you to our special guest, Merce Brown, for taking the time out of her busy day to talk with us about crisis communications. So if you haven't liked, shared, subscribed, subscribed, or subscribed, or told your friends about the Brand Shorthand Podcast, please do. And until next time, have an amazing day.