Mark Vandegrift
Welcome to the Brand Shorthand Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Vandegrift, and with me today is the Paragon of Positioning, Lorraine Kessler. Lorraine, guess what? I'm gonna have to rescind something I said, I don't know, a couple of weeks ago about that horrible Target commercial. And you know, the one where they're awkwardly singing and dancing and interacting with like really generic products. Well, it turns out things could be worse. Now this is my take on it and I think our esteemed new producer Denver believes the same thing. But we had mixed results here at the agency and that was the Walmart one. It's a back-to-school Walmart ad and I was lost because the jargon up front was so weird. It was Generation Alpha, Gen-Alpha slang, that to anyone outside of Gen-Alpha, I think they would have been lost immediately. What's funny is I was talking to my daughters about it, who we just recently helped move apartments down in Charlotte, and they had seen it and they were baffled. And what was weird is there's one word in there that we use growing up in the eight- okay, I'm in the eighties, right? I'm an eighties child. We always said "preppy" and it meant like, wearing your collar like this and you had all the nice clothes and nice clothes back then was, you know, just having a "preppy" shirt as we would call it. And our daughter said, "Well, it doesn't quite mean that anymore," but when we got back around to it, preppy meant preppy. It was same thing. So I don't know when we start redefining words, it just boggled my mind. But anyhow, but even Denver, our producer, all of 23 years old, didn't know what most of the words were that were being used. And it was directed at the parents of these kids. So I'm sure that they probably hear these words at home and maybe that's a good thing, but I don't know. I was lost on it. I don't know if you've seen it. If you have, let me know your opinion on this.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, you sent me the link. So I did look at it and I have to be the contrarian here. Even a 23-year-old, Denver, is not the audience. Even your daughters who are in, what, early, late twenties?

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, 23 and 25.

They're not the audience. You're not the audience. I'm not even the audience as a grandmother. Neither is my daughter as the mother of children. I think, you know, this, I'm a contrarian. think it was a great ad and I think you have to look beyond the lingo, right? Because I don't understand rap. Right? And yet I can like some rap music, but I don't know what they're talking about. And I don't, you know, I don't have that- that worldview, but I can appreciate who it's focusing on. But research does show, right? That kids are huge influencers for parents. And so you have to remember this is TV and this is broadcast. So when it's broadcast like that, it's reaching a broad audience. That's the whole idea of it. It's like, you know, the family. And according to the National Retail Federation, I think their acronym is NRF or something like that, the world's largest retail association, 90% of parents say their children influence their purchase decisions. So I know as a grandmother just kind of hovering, you know, I know this in my own age, right? My parents would never have bought me a CPO jacket, which was called that back in the day, or a bench warmer unless I wanted it. And I know my grandkids, the things that they want to buy or put on their Christmas list or birthday, I don't know anything about them. I don't know their slang. In fact, I can't remember what it was, but I was out with both grandkids and my grandson said something to me. He used some slang and I didn't know what he was talking about, and my daughter had to interpret. I wish I remember what the word was, but I have no idea what he was talking about. And it wasn't the kind-

Mark Vandegrift
They were doing hand symbols or something.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah. So, you know, the point is, and I think this has gone all the way- you know, when I was a kid and on my birthday, my ninth birthday on Sunday night, February 9th, 1964, the Beatles appeared on Ed Sullivan. And my mother and my aunt did not get it at all. And all they talked about was how crazy their hair was, and look at those boots they're wearing, cause they wore these Beatle boots. Guess what? That's what it was. It was like that. That hair started growing and every guy knew had beetle boots. So, you know, this has gone on for a long time. So I think kids, this is- I thought that this ad, forget the words, right? What they were presenting was a repositioning of Walmart as a place for back-to-school that was actually kind of hip for kids. And now the end judgment of this won't be us, but it'll be the kids. If the kids buy it and the kids say- because I think they're the real target- if the kids say, "let's go to Walmart because they have some cool stuff," then that's a win for Walmart. Will they succeed or not? I don't know, but I really felt like it was an ad that was aimed that way, and kudos to Walmart. So, that's for sure.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, they went edgy, that's for sure. I'm not sure that I think of Walmart and being on trend at Walmart. That's not my thought about their position. And the girl that was in her getup that was doing all the talking, it looked like she had a, I don't know, purple and pink mouse ears or-

Lorraine Kessler
Hey, careful, my granddaughter wears this and they're adorable. They're adorable. They're like really cute. Believe me, see, you're like this, you know, we can't comment. You have to think as a marketer always in terms of not us, but who's the target. And I think the target is that age group because Walmart's marketers are smart enough to know if I can become cool with them for back-to-school, if I can at least get them to be favorable, we got a shot at this, so good job. I'll have to send you a picture of my granddaughter with those things.

Mark Vandegrift
Please do.

Lorraine Kessler
She worn the whole time when we were at Cooperstown.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah. Well, let's move on to something a little less dizzying because that makes eyeballs hurt. I wanted to get into our topic today, which is something that you brought to my attention and an idea that we briefly touched on in our conversation about Dr. Pepper, and that's cult branding. Remember us talking about that?

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah.

Mark Vandegrift
So when I say cult brand, I'm sure people listening who don't know what that means might think of my trip to Waco and robes and ceremonies and Kool-Aid, all those scary things, none of which were... 

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah. I'm sorry. I can't hear the words Kool-Aid without thinking Jim Jones. Right?

Mark Vandegrift
Right, that's whole point. 

Lorraine Kessler
And I had to explain to my 38-year-old, now 39-year-old son, he did not know that "drinking the Kool-Aid" came from the Jim-

Mark Vandegrift
Came from that?

Lorraine Kessler
No, he did not know the context. No.

Mark Vandegrift
Really? Well, since this is your topic, we'll let you take the reins and explain two things. First, explain what cult branding is. We have to define that. And second, what all does it take to build a cult brand?

Lorraine Kessler
Okay, good. Well, first of all, I want to also thank our friend Doug Burton for sending us some content on this and I'll get into that as we go through this because it does really marry with so much that we've done, right, in our practice and positioning. But you asked first for a definition. Well, a cult brand is really all the emotions, all the ideas and all the meaning, right, that we establish in our own mind- the impression or the idea we have in our mind about a brand and it's the distinct experience, right? So, I mean, that's, it's all those things, all those things that we think about emotionally. How does a brand make us feel? What does it really mean to us? What value does it give to us? All of those associations. And then really what a cult brand does, an exemplary, it's exemplary in what it does is it creates a real relationship with the customer. There's an intimacy that comes and kind of an exchange that you would have in any relationship where it's mutually informing. You kind of move with each other and you kind of, you find some edification together and you find something that draws you together. Just like any couple who's been together for a long time. So you have this idea of intimacy and whatever. Now, one of the things about this is that when you even talk about just a general in brand, you know, a brand isn't what the marketer thinks they create. Certainly we try to create certain feelings and emotions and meaning, and then have experiences, reinforce that, and what have you. But a brand isn't created till the customer says it's created. So we kind of signal what we're trying to do, but it's ultimately the target audience that says, "Yes, now you're a brand." In terms of a cult brand, when we're talking about this, there's also usually a lifestyle component, like something about it is informing or benefiting my lifestyle, how I see myself, and we'll get into those specifics. But I will say this, that very few brands ever reach cult brands status, and that's not, that's nothing wrong with that. There are many, many brands that are very ubiquitous. In other words, they're very familiar to us. We have a lot of knowledge about, we have maybe even a lot of trust for. I mean, consider Ford and Scotch Tape and Xerox and IBM and Nescafe, Apple and Google, even. You can just go on and on that even some of the top 10 brands like Samsung or Toyota have achieved high brand status, but they may not be cult brands by association. They might not be things that kind of create their own wake in such a, I don't know, kind of a meshed way. I don't know how to say that. So it's in one hand, you have to- there's some categories where I don't think there's ever going to be a cult brand, right? I mean, I would find it hard to find a business-to-business brand that's ever going to be a cult brand. I think the more functional something is and what it delivers as a value, I think it's harder to be a cult brand. So you're going to find most of the cult brands have to do with things that are very personal to the person, like clothing or cars, which- status, or boats that can have high status or airplanes or anything that I would associate with- food, some restaurants, those kinds of things that help define me as well as the brand or some characteristic of me, I think you're going to find that. So anyway, that's a long definition, but a pretty good definition and a caveat.

Mark Vandegrift
Good. Well, it might be good to hear from our viewers and listeners to weigh in on which of these brands that you just mentioned are really successful in that cult branding. I know that in what Doug presented to us, we had these seven golden rules, right, that would define a cult brand. So why don't we go through those today? Because I think that'll help our listeners understand it so they can now weigh that against the brand. So why don't you start with the first rule, Lorraine?

Lorraine Kessler
Okay, and I will say that these rules are kind of come to us through the work of Bolivar Bueno, who's a retail marketing consultant in his many books on cult branding. And this is from his workbook. He had a particular workbook. So if anybody wants to look that up, they can Google Mr. Bueno and find these. So the first rule I'll talk about is that- it's the rule that says people need social groups. No matter how differentiated or independent you want to be, you do need social groups. And this is where this idea of... we buy brands or products that in some respect we hope give us some social cachet or social connectedness. So we want to be differentiated and independent, but we also want to be part of like-minded groups with emphasis on like-minded. And we really enjoy being different and standing out, but we desperately need others to kind of either affirm or agree with us or appreciate us, or what have you. And this is the whole world that social media spins on, right? I mean, just think about who really annoys you on Facebook and who you really hope to cultivate. So we're kind of schizophrenic, right? We have this terrible need to be independent and differentiated on one hand, but we have a desperate need for community and to be somewhat, somewhat affirmed, if not praised on the other, or part of something.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, that kind of sounds like the neophilic and neophobic issue that you pointed out I think the last couple of episodes, and that schizophrenia of what we tell one side of our mind we want to be and the other side is pulling us in the other direction. It's not a disease or anything. It's just the way we're humanly developed and designed. And we have that desperate need for community and yet, you know, we're all about differentiation- you know, it's right here. So it's that tension. So building on that, this idea that's always pulling that, give us the second rule and maybe that'll help put the schizophrenia in some context.

Lorraine Kessler
Sure. And before I go to a second, I just want to clarify how this relates to a cult brand, the first rule, is that a cult brand kind of cultivates those like-minded people. It helps bring that community together, glue them together, understands what they need, and you as an individual within that group. So that's the first thing. The second principle is that cult brands really have courage. I mean, they really do show- they're willing to show daring and determination towards being a little bit different to maybe being fighters or leaders, not just followers or quitters or moreover, apologists, right? So they take risks and they are not afraid to attack conventional thinking. And, you know, I'm thinking of some brands when I was thinking about this was like think Dyson, right? You can talk about a category that needed reinvention.

Mark Vandegrift
Amen.

Lorraine Kessler
Oh my God. Think Yeti when Yeti came out, right. And think Gillette, think Stanley Cup, the new Stanley Cup that's the big rave, or think Skechers, the slip on shoes we like Mark.

Mark Vandegrift
Yep, we love.

Lorraine Kessler
Right. So these are brands and these are old categories that kind of the new brand came in and said, "We're willing to be daring, do it differently, fix a problem that's been ignored or whatever, or see it in a new way." And so one of the ways this connects with what we always teach as positionists is you have to be willing to attack yourself constantly. Innovation, innovation.

Mark Vandegrift
Well, and visually, think I always look at, and this was probably more common back in the day, but someone that dyed their hair pink and they had 26 piercings and tattoos, you know, back in our day, that was like really standing apart. And what was interesting going back to the schizophrenic nature of it, the people that hung together the most were those people. So they were daring enough to be differentiated, but they were also the most clingy to one another that you would ever see. That's a good visual if people are, you if they're old enough to remember when not everybody had a tattoo or had multiple piercings or anything. Back in our day, that was like, oh my gosh, that stands apart. And yet you always saw them together. So we have courage to be different and we have the schizophrenia of hanging together, but wanting to be different and hanging together. Those are our two kind of glom together. What's the third rule?

Lorraine Kessler
Right. Well, cult brands and... Bueno talks about cult brands, you know, stand for fun or have fun. I kind of- the word fun kind of just jogs me a little bit. I don't think it's so much fun as joy because they sell lifestyles. So what I like joy better because not every brand that you- could really be a cult brand is gonna give you fun, but it is gonna give you joy in terms of what your satisfaction is that you're looking for, right? So that can be feeling that I'm showing off my success by having a Mercedes Benz and driving around in the newest version. Or that can be that I'm showing forth I have good taste by going to the best restaurants or the one that takes a year to get into, or even walking around the office with my Starbucks cup. Or that I have pride in using the right tool. That's a more joyful thing than fun for business or pleasure, you know, that I'm using the best research firm or whatever. So I think the point is a cult brand helps you celebrate something about you that is distinctive, important and rewarding to you. And they really understand what that is. That's the other thing. There has to be this communication and referral kind of thing where that brand really understands you very well.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, joy is a good word because fun makes me think like I'm out on the town having fun when indeed joy is about a state of being. You know, someone that is enjoying, say, a cult brand draft beer or a cigar or something like that doesn't necessarily mean they're just having fun. They could be sitting out on a porch by themselves reminiscing about life, but they're in a good state of mind. So I like that word joy as well. It seems to be a little bit better.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, Joy's just a little closer to me to satisfaction, personal satisfaction.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, yeah, good. Okay, so we're already through three. Let's hit number four now.

Lorraine Kessler
Well, you know, this is something we've talked about a lot. It's you understand human needs. And the point that the cult brand will do is it knows that it has to listen to the choir and it creates evangelists who then can reach out to others. So, and we talked a lot about this, about marketing to the core, but realize others are listening. And the others who are listening will share many of, but not all of the same values that the core does, but you cannot ever lose your connection to the core. So you can't ever lose your connection to that choir. And it demands that you respect them. A cult brand respects the core and rewards them so that they do become evangelists. So when we talked about some of the brands that went woke, that should never have gone woke, right? I mean-

Mark Vandegrift
That's why I was laughing because I was thinking Bud Light, Target, John Deere, Harley Davidson. I mean, all of these.

Lorraine Kessler
Right. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to be blunt here, but they said, "screw the choir," you know? I mean, you do that in a church, you're going to lose your church. You do that as a cult brand, you're going to lose your following. Remember, it's all about like-minded people and you cultivate them and you gather them and you reward them and you have this referral relationship. So you do these things, that's- this really struck me based on our last conversations.

Mark Vandegrift
That's the last few, right? Yeah, well, and it almost in every case you just do the same thing and say follow the money because most of these brands do it because they're not satisfied with the core that they have and they become bored of their brand- which I just used that term today branding is boring business- so they get bored with it and they want to reinvent themselves to grow the audience when in fact they have a great audience if they would just nurture it and then remember that a new customer or a new prospect is born every day. And so if they would just keep that in mind, this whole thing about growth for the sake of Wall Street profits is a killer, killer formula.

Lorraine Kessler
Right. Or just thinking that I have to be culturally on whatever the next thing is in order to be relevant. No, you don't. Your relevance as a brand is determined by how you satisfy- go back to the joy- the needs of the core customer. And it has nothing to do with what's going on in the macro-culture. It can, but it doesn't have to.

Mark Vandegrift
When, you just listen to them, they're going to tell you mostly what's next. I mean, we, we always say innovation doesn't typically come from the audience, but at least the satisfaction level and finding out if they're yearning for something more, which is kind of always assumed, but if you're listening to your audience, then this kind of takes care of itself. You don't have to go out and reinvent yourself or figure out what the latest social thing is that's going on. It's a matter of kind of being like a good listener, right?

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, being a good listener is the ultimate in respect, right? I mean, even one-to-one. If you're a good listener, which means you're not just hearing the words, but you're really understanding what the need and the want or the desire is of the person speaking with you, that's genuine, that's authentic, and that's always rewarded.

Mark Vandegrift
Mm-hmm, yep. Good. Well, now we get to the rule number five, which I believe is contributions, so Lorraine, take it away.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, one of the fifth that Bueno points out is that cult brands create communities or- again, these communities reflect the like-minded interests of their choir and their core, but they choose these communities to help, to kind of give back that reflects what the interests and the cares of their audience are. And this isn't giving to political causes at odds with one's core customer. It's kind of really, again, listening and understanding what matters to them and what they will appreciate, and then giving back. So they're looked to be humble and to be giving so that it's not just- this relationship isn't just about profit in terms of dollars and cents, but it's profitable in terms of the rewards that are mutually shared between the brand and its audience.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, I think it falls into the authenticity and transparency where we are in society today. Not to be looking at that as a trend, but from a corporate responsibility side of things, which, you know, there's other things layered into corporate responsibility, but I think most of us yearn for authenticity and transparency. And that kind of rolls into our rule number six as well. I don't want to steal the theme from that, but, you know, when you're talking about contribution, it's you're sharing what's important in your heart as an individual. If I say, "I really care about this thing," corporations can do the same thing. They can say, we really care about... X, whatever that may be. And a lot of companies are being founded that way now.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, and I think that it's real important that what they you give to as a brand has some relevance to your business. And I'm going to use an example. Petitti Gardens is in our hometown. They're from Cleveland. And when you check out, they can make a donation, I think it's to Akron Children's Hospital. Now, that's a good cause, but I don't understand why Petitti Gardens- for two things. What is the relationship between a growing, a grower enterprise that sells flowers and landscaping and trees and all this- and they actually congeal growers for their business- and Akron Children's. And what moreover is the relationship in our hometown, right? When we have hospitals that serve our constituents. So it's not that that's terrible or bad, but I think they could do better. Like why not do something for planting a tree for the environment. Because we know the more trees, the more CO2 that's eaten up, the better for the environment. That's green, right? So I mean, I think when brands think about what we're going to give to, they could go a little further to really say, this is my people- really care about growing things and about that part of life and plant life and greener planet. And so how do I support that? So I think they have to. I think there's a lot of opportunity for brands to do a better job.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, good. Well, let's move to rule number six.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, and this one is kind of a dicey one because it's it's the rule of openness cult brands are inclusive. But that word has been co-opt in today to me now you go after everybody who's not the core and that's not what this means I don't think I think what it means is that they stay open to always listening to what their core audiences say and what the like-minded communities that they can cultivate are thinking and doing and they don't rely on imaginary profiles. Remember when we went through that in the agency world? You know, and you have these people-

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah. "I need six personas. Give me six personas."

Lorraine Kessler
Like, my God, I think it's time for me to get out of this business. But these imaginary profiles of ideal customers just don't do it. I think what it does is you are constantly exploring the relationship you have with your customers, whether it for research, talking with them, focused studies, just online, putting out surveys, finding where they are. And you're open to kind of move. It's all brands have to move, right? They're not static. They have to be able to be fluid. And I think that's what this means is- if I were writing this, would say, "cult brands are very fluid, they're listening in a way and responding in a way that's not only authentic, but meaningful."

Mark Vandegrift
Well, imagine if Stanley had kept listening to their core customer, right? Which was what? Men with lunch pails, right? And all of sudden this blog comes along of three females that places a $10,000- or a 10,000 unit wholesale order and they sell out in like four minutes. I mean, imagine if, "nope, gotta stick to our persona."

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, we got to stick to our one persona.

Mark Vandegrift
Which, they did for a couple of years and the new CEO comes in and goes, wait, what's going on over here? Let's chase that. And sure enough, Stanley becomes, you know, the in thing. Now, Ouala has already, I guess, supplanted that. But I mean, Stanley is going to make its hay. And I think they learned a valuable lesson, which is what you're saying. Let's not go into this rote, systematic, always have to work this way kind of method. Let's be flexible, anti-corporate in the sense of when we spot an opportunity, let's research it, let's test it, let's see if it would work for us.

Lorraine Kessler
You know, I think a brand that could do the same thing is Carhartt, right? Because there are so many women makers, like in my household, you know this, I do the building, I do the painting, I do the heavy yard work, like digging holes and planting trees. Women's Carhartt, it's like, it wouldn't be that far away. It shouldn't be demographically driven. It should be driven about all the emotions and ideas that I have about Carhartt as kind of hearty outdoor, you know, apparel that I when I'm going to work hard. So I think they could do the same thing Stanley did.

Mark Vandegrift
Yeah, that'd be good. Yep. Good. Well, we got to our last one here and we're just up against time here. So give us the seventh rule, which is all about freedom.

Lorraine Kessler
Yeah, I mean, a cult brand really promote your personal freedom and I would say individuality or identity. And in doing that, they kind of promise freedom from conformity. So it's freedom and nonconformity, right? "I'm not like everybody else, but in part, there's a lot like me." So again, it's another one of these contradictions, right? But the beauty of that, and this relates to something we really preach strongly as positionists, is that it really creates a meaningful differentiation from you, from anything that's conformity, anything that's the status quo. It's a super break. It's saying, "hey, what can we be as opposed to the status quo?" And you know, I think we think about Apple versus- or the Mac versus Microsoft. Remember that commercial? There was the PC guy and the Mac guy. Perfect contrast, right? Because Apple was for the non-conformist. And so this is kind of where you start to get these brands to pull apart and they create Blue Ocean, which is something you've meant. There's a book on that, but it is creating a whole new space, a whole new sandbox that only you can win in.

Mark Vandegrift
Very good. Well, I want to thank you for going through those for us. And Doug, you know who you are out there. Thank you for introducing us to that book, or workbook. And it really aligns with what we know about positioning and branding. So Lorraine, any final thoughts before we finish up today?

Lorraine Kessler
No, I think that if people take these to heart and think about what they can do in their brand to become closer, understand who their audience is, their choir, how to reward them so they become evangelists, how to play to the idea of being a non-conformist and breaking with that pattern so that they can go against others, reinvent and all that, and just follow these facts, I think- I think you're on the way to have a very strong brand.

Mark Vandegrift
Yep. Good. Well, thank you for all who joined us today. If you haven't liked, shared, subscribed, or told your friends about the Brand Shorthand podcast, please do. And remember, subscribe. Lorraine says so. Until next time, have an amazing day.